tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post8077339502281014160..comments2023-12-26T04:58:04.337+11:00Comments on Flight of the Dragon: POV Made Simple and Why Head-hopping Is NaughtyAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18436989031700445050noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-18139464287489710732015-06-11T06:54:19.295+10:002015-06-11T06:54:19.295+10:00Really great post! Very helpful to me as I'm n...Really great post! Very helpful to me as I'm new to writing, just awesome!Michelle Rene (Illustrator)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-77954129160513412812012-06-18T18:29:57.485+10:002012-06-18T18:29:57.485+10:00 Thank you, I am very flattered. I think certain w... Thank you, I am very flattered. I think certain writers I have certain preferences, and I admit to being one of them - I prefer third limited, both as a writer and a reader, but that also comes out of people's genre preferences, because certain genres tend towards certain POVs. I read a lot of epic fantasy, which doesn't fit first person because there are so many characters, but people who read a lot of thrillers may prefer first because that is the tendency there. Second is not only extremely hard to write well, but not much sought after by publishers of any kind. <br /><br />I think it's appropriate to first choose a POV that suits the genre you write, and then a POV that is within your skills. First is not only unsuitable for my genre, but after discussions with my writer's group, definitely not my strength. You're right, it IS hard to write, although commonly mistaken as easy. But there is no shame, I think, in playing to one's strengths. I gave my group the same story in first and third, and one of my crit partners said she had many objections to the first person version - but when she read the third person version, they just disappeared and the story worked very well. And for the record, while I write third limited, I'm told it is further to the omniscient end of the scale than not. Just my style, I guess. <br /><br />Choose the tool appropriate to the job, and one you know how to use. Then you'll get the best result.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-16954364365834714272012-06-16T04:09:14.543+10:002012-06-16T04:09:14.543+10:00I've been thinking a lot about this post since...I've been thinking a lot about this post since you published it. POV is the biggest problem in the novel I'm currently writing, and once I read this post, I knew beyond a doubt that head-hopping was my problem. In the past, I've written most of my short stories in 3rd limited, but I thought I could pull off omniscient for my first book (biting off more than I can chew). Ugh. Most modern writers gravitate toward 3rd limited, but at times I wish that wasn't the case. Readers and writers get too conditioned at times to go with the flow. One of the best stort stories I've read in recent years was in 2nd person. It just all depends on the purpose to be achieved and the skill-level of the writer. I'm forever thankful I've had intense workshops where I experimented with all variations of POVs, but still find myself falling back on 3rd limited. I most prefer 1st person, but feel it's the hardest to pull off. Anyway, I'll be thinking about this post for a long time which is the true mark of a job well done on your beahalf!Jeri Walker-Bicketthttp://twitter.com/JeriWBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-5005863816337702052012-05-23T19:21:59.355+10:002012-05-23T19:21:59.355+10:00 LOL, is she sure? Glad you found the post useful.... LOL, is she sure? Glad you found the post useful. Wait til you read about deep third. It's even doing my head in.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-60501063231067668572012-05-23T19:21:29.102+10:002012-05-23T19:21:29.102+10:00 My pleasure. I'm pleased this post has been s... My pleasure. I'm pleased this post has been so popular!Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-84521097740514200882012-05-23T15:56:04.592+10:002012-05-23T15:56:04.592+10:00Oh my! Now it's going to take me forever to e...Oh my! Now it's going to take me forever to edit. Many thanks for this. Great examples. I think I understand. <br />She thought she understood.lynneinPboroughhttp://lynnelives.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-42027938830923681252012-05-22T02:04:05.463+10:002012-05-22T02:04:05.463+10:00Great tips. Now I have to check myself. I will ref...Great tips. Now I have to check myself. I will referring back to this post. Thank you.Veronicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-35779343332941199772012-05-20T19:59:35.999+10:002012-05-20T19:59:35.999+10:00 Thanks! Glad you found it so useful. :-) Thanks! Glad you found it so useful. :-)Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-39559407194459033712012-05-20T12:22:15.381+10:002012-05-20T12:22:15.381+10:00Great post! Lots of good examples and tips. Look f...Great post! Lots of good examples and tips. Look forward to the next one. Thanks!Jo Dentonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-60648020373096588052012-05-19T09:05:57.122+10:002012-05-19T09:05:57.122+10:00 It's taken me a long time to do it! And I agr... It's taken me a long time to do it! And I agree, examples are critical. No amount of explanation is going to help someone who just 'doesn't get it' but showing an example can often be a light bulb moment. <br /><br />I agree, 1st and 3rd do have lot in common. I think if you migrated first to third, you'd get an example of deep third (which we'll look at more next week). If you migrated third limited to first, you'd get an imperfect example of first which might need some editing to get it right. But it's pretty close, and in fact it's the only way I can write first. <br /><br />I think when we get bad writing in books from big publishing houses it's because the writer has enough clout to resists the editor's suggestions. And in my opinion, that's wrong. If people are paying good money for it, the writer should be made to fix technical issues. Creative differences are something else of course. I agree craft issues in cheaper books also annoy me but, as you say, the price softens the blow and probably my expectations weren't as high anyway. On the other hand, you get a better impression when a book with a lower price actually gets it right!Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-28492328270506180112012-05-19T08:59:51.710+10:002012-05-19T08:59:51.710+10:00Thanks for writing this.
I've often wanted t...Thanks for writing this. <br /><br />I've often wanted to do a similar post but I was never brave enough to do it (I guess I was afraid I would do it wrong). I totally agree with you that established authors with professional editors from big publishing houses have NO excuse for getting this stuff wrong and you are completely justified in feeling ripped off when paying good money for a poor quality product. That said I also feel that a low proce point doesn't excuse sloppy craftsmanship either but it does somewhat soften the blow if it does exist.<br /><br />This kind of information - with clear examples - is key to getting people to understand so my hat's off to you for doing it.<br /><br />I would like to suggest that first person and third limited have a lot in common and one could (conceivably) be changed to the other with minimal effort. Doing that might not give you the best example of the new POV but it would be correct. <br /><br />In fact I do just that. If I am in the middle of a tricky scene with lots of characters and am a bit stuck regarding how to portray the non POV character. Write it roughly in first person, placing myself firmly in the POV characters place, and then migrate to third. <br /><br />Looking forward to the next post when we go deeper (excuse the pun) into this. :-)Goranhttp://gzidar.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-12425121346918852532012-05-19T08:59:19.367+10:002012-05-19T08:59:19.367+10:00 I personally believe a writer can write their fir... I personally believe a writer can write their first draft in whatever way works best for them. As they say, it's better to get it on the paper, and fix any issues later, than to write nothing because the writer is making an attempt to make it perfect. A first draft doesn't need to be perfect; that's what editing is for. The first draft is just getting the story out. The way you write the character's thoughts in your first draft sounds to me like the notes I make in mine - a reference card for the writer so they know to make certain changes on the second pass, rather than something the reader is ever intended to see. And there's nothing wrong with that. this is just part of the writing process, and as we know, every writer has their own! In some ways, my own notes are more obvious than yours - I bold them and highlight them in yellow and they read things like 'Check if X did/said Y in scene A'.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-58825078158983585912012-05-19T08:55:51.059+10:002012-05-19T08:55:51.059+10:00 I'm thrilled you found this both useful and e... I'm thrilled you found this both useful and easy to understand! It sounds your two POV characters, while both are using first, are easily distinguishable, and while this is unconventional, this is the recommended way of approaching this issue. <br /><br />I don't think there are any hard and fast rules about changing POV e.g. as I note above, Harry Potter starts in third omniscient and ends in third limited, although there are some purists who will tell you this is a no-no. I'm not sure if this is particularly frowned upon in first (I suspect it may be but have no source for that). Personally I would describe the scene through the perception of your POV character - it's more relevant to your reader anyway. If you're telling us things your POV character doesn't know, your reader probably won't care either.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-69795481451840926192012-05-19T08:52:27.764+10:002012-05-19T08:52:27.764+10:00The thoughts in italics tool is a good indication ...The thoughts in italics tool is a good indication that they THINK they are writing in third limited. If you take out thoughts in italic, you remove the reader from the character's head, and you should, hopefully, then be in omniscient. Most often head-hopping results from confusion on the writer's part about what POV they want to use and how to execute it. Knowing what multiple characters are thinking in omniscient is perfectly acceptable, so long as we aren't inside their heads. When omniscient is used properly the average reader shouldn't notice - and in fact, when I'm given good examples of omniscient POV in books I've read, usually my response is 'I didn't notice'. That's omniscient well done!Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-87702615695700144812012-05-19T08:14:22.672+10:002012-05-19T08:14:22.672+10:00I like to write in 3rd person omniscient, but I fo...I like to write in 3rd person omniscient, but I focus on one character per scene. If I'm NOT in a character's head, I'll write for a draft what's up above in the head hopping example, but then GO BACK and block that "internal" information. By blocking, I mean like in theatre, where you ascribe action to the internal conflict to express an emotion to the audience. And for the love of the pen, leave the "bit his/her lower lip" out as much as possible. It's easy to become cliche using this method too. <br /><br /><br />Basically, I play it in my head. What does Character XYZ DO to express what's going on in her head? It can be anything from snapping a rubber band to slamming a water faucet etc. to shifting his weight to his other foot. In real life, people fidget. People stall for time. And when I can't come up with an action? Then it's time to consider that little tidbit just doesn't belong because it's not important. If the internalization isn't affecting my character in a physical manifestation, it won't affect my reader, either. And in that scenario, I revisit the dialogue, perhaps there's a way to convey the subtext or underlying meaning there, but removing words or not directly answering/responding to the previous dialogue etc.<br /><br />Anyway, hope that helps.Elizabeth Ann Westhttp://profiles.google.com/eawestwritesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-20988171326780635182012-05-19T06:16:02.202+10:002012-05-19T06:16:02.202+10:00I have read and reread the discussion on POV. You...I have read and reread the discussion on POV. Yours is the first that I have been able to grasp. I feel like I should shout out as is the custom of where I now live - the Deep South - "Thank you, Jesus," even without a drop of religion in my soul. However, it is not yet set in stone. I have to work with it to take it home. <br /><br />I like first person because of the intimacy and easy access to the inner monologue which my storytelling requires. I am now in the process of doing that bad thing, though not naughty, having two different major characters, but one is dialectic in speech so I believe that won't be confusing to the reader. BUT - help me here, if you will. I love setting a scene physically- landscape or weather or geography and as I was reading your blog I realized I had moved to a narrator voice to accomplish that. Is that permissible or is there another way to offer that detail? Please feel free to e-mail me if that is easier for you. Thank you in advance for your help.Again, many thanks for rendering this confusing subject in an understandable way.Christina Carsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-5586091483662259232012-05-18T21:56:16.096+10:002012-05-18T21:56:16.096+10:00I always hated head-hopping, but only because writ...I always hated head-hopping, but only because writers do it wrong. They often use the 'thoughts in italics' tool, which is irritating. One can do it, but in moderation.<br /><br />The example you're using above is wonderful, I find. Personally, I'm using it in my new book for the first time and quite enjoy the challenge. Those who read excerpts didn't even notice the change of POV. My friend, who's reading my book as I go has now started One Day, which I threw across the room for many reasons, one of them the badly handled omniscient POV. She says it's very noticeable compared to my writing. If more people are in the room, you need to let the reader into the characters' heads constantly. Head-hopping is rather irritating if you start the chapter with on person's POV, go on for ages and suddenly dip into another head.Stella Deleuzehttp://twitter.com/StellaDeleuzenoreply@blogger.com