tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post4385434187993130156..comments2023-12-26T04:58:04.337+11:00Comments on Flight of the Dragon: What is Deep Third POV?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18436989031700445050noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-79515349187714442222012-08-08T08:59:25.686+10:002012-08-08T08:59:25.686+10:00Deep third is a tough one, and I don't pretend...Deep third is a tough one, and I don't pretend to be any good at it. I understand logically HOW it works, but I'm terrible at executing it, and not very good at spotting it either.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-14260470037571563602012-08-07T22:38:11.029+10:002012-08-07T22:38:11.029+10:00Interesting post, thank you. I am still confused, ...Interesting post, thank you. I am still confused, and feel the need to re-read all my published novels to see what POV they appear to be in! Rosie AshRosalie Ashnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-89199329266855088132012-06-20T12:52:26.960+10:002012-06-20T12:52:26.960+10:00So do I... I'm not going to pretend this was e...So do I... I'm not going to pretend this was easy to write!Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-49583576930563114412012-06-20T12:19:45.271+10:002012-06-20T12:19:45.271+10:00Thanks, Ciara. That was a very clear description o...Thanks, Ciara. That was a very clear description of deep third POV. Now I just have to read it twenty times so it sinks into my brain.Stephaniebergetnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-85424442900675504282012-05-29T09:54:19.256+10:002012-05-29T09:54:19.256+10:00 I don't purport to be an expert, and I freely... I don't purport to be an expert, and I freely admit I struggle with the concept, so I do encourage you to read up on deep third elsewhere as well as here. However, in an attempt to answer your questions:<br /><br />I meant literally last night, and not, for example, the night before last, or a night earlier than that. Yes deep third is written in past tense. Present tense is an unusual literary device and not found all that often. Even first is usually written in past tense. Past tense seems to be the easiest for readers to process (not my opinion, but that of the literary world in general). <br /><br />It is appropriate to say 'last night' (for, specifically, last night and not an earlier night) because the idea is that it's not narrative from the narrator, but an internal thought for a character. In third limited, the character might think 'Last night was a disaster' and we'd italicise it. If it wasn't a thought, it wouldn't be italicised and would say 'The night before had been a disaster'. In deep third, it's impliedly understood it is a thought or character perception, it's not italicised, and we write 'last night had been a disaster'. Hence your point last night is only correct if used in dialogue - or, I would say, internal monologue. And the point with deep third is that narrative and internal monologue blur and become almost indistinguishable. At least, I THINK that's how it's supposed to work from what I've been taught. <br /><br />As I said, I don't purport to be an expert on deep third. I can help even less with tenses because I've never bothered to learn about tenses - I always write in past tense. All I can say is no, deep third is not typically written in present tense (is anything typically written in present tense?) and I urge you to use other resources than my humble blog to find satisfactory answersto your questions. Thanks for asking, though, and sorry if my answer was less than helpful.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-74246315303424947312012-05-29T05:55:45.285+10:002012-05-29T05:55:45.285+10:00Hi,
I enjoyed reading your informative explanation...Hi,<br />I enjoyed reading your informative explanation and attempt to define the concept of deep third, and particularly liked the observation that pronouns should only be used in action. <br /><br />However, I take issue with your comment on Relative Time: You asked, do I think 'the night before' to myself? I would have to say 'yes' if I were reflecting on an evening in the past and not literally last night. It seems from all your examples that deep third is written in the past tense ('the air smelled of baking bread'), and not the present tense ('the air smells of baking bread'). I believe it would be appropriate to say 'last night' if your narrative was written in the present tense, but if it is past tense, then you are already recounting an event from some point in the past, and any reference to a relative 'last night' would need to be referred to as 'the night before', because it is time relative to the narrative event, and not the narrator's telling of the tale. <br /><br />Maybe Deep Third would be better restricted to Present Tense narrative, if the relative immediacy of a term like 'last night' is an important device for increasing proximity with the character? Otherwise 'last night' is only chronologically correct if used in dialogue. The same difficulty arises with the use of, say, 'three weeks ago' in the narration. Again, this would work if the narrative is Present tense, but would need to be 'three weeks before' if the rest of the narrative is written in past tense.<br /><br />Is this present tense relative time usage a convention within Deep Third POV? If so, I have to apologize, as I have never before heard of deep third, and am ignorant of its features. If this usage of relative time is common, then you are correctly defining it as such. I'm not trying to be difficult - I just thought the distinction between past and present tense was an important one.Dave Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-83351932583159734892012-05-29T05:52:41.542+10:002012-05-29T05:52:41.542+10:00No, don't feel silly, it's a hard one to g...No, don't feel silly, it's a hard one to get. I've been hearing about it for a year now and it kind of only just clicked for me the other day. I'm sure there are people who can explain it better than me, too.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-64669012721962327312012-05-29T05:50:34.122+10:002012-05-29T05:50:34.122+10:00Okay, I guess I'm the dummy here 'cause I&...Okay, I guess I'm the dummy here 'cause I'm still lost where deep third is concerned. If you come across someone writing in it, would you please let me know. That might help. Thanks for all your efforts on our behalf.Christina Carsonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-75703751570805307522012-05-29T05:49:31.242+10:002012-05-29T05:49:31.242+10:00 LOL I might too but then I can be a bit pompous! ... LOL I might too but then I can be a bit pompous! I think it's fairly safe to say most people don't. Glad you found the post useful.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-71197404661077752152012-05-29T05:49:31.032+10:002012-05-29T05:49:31.032+10:00 My pleasure. Plenty of people can write 1st well,... My pleasure. Plenty of people can write 1st well, I'm just not one of them :-) I could probably learn, but not much point when I write high/epic fantasy! I always write in past tense. I find other tenses a bit weird.Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-9559921255095777202012-05-29T05:40:24.126+10:002012-05-29T05:40:24.126+10:00I enjoyed reading this. POV's can be confusing...I enjoyed reading this. POV's can be confusing. You brought up some great points. I read <br /> "Do you think ‘the night before' to yourself?" and laughed. Yes, I actually do think that way but I already know that I think differently from the average person in a weirdly objective manner. More importantly, you point (using relative time) was solid. The whole post was thought provoking for me. Good job.MAJKhttp://twitter.com/Safirebladenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-51976967510673152492012-05-29T04:46:25.318+10:002012-05-29T04:46:25.318+10:00Complicated. I'm writing short stoies in 1st a...Complicated. I'm writing short stoies in 1st atm with no difficulties. It can be done. Jim Butcher uses it in thr Dresden Files.when I want to write in a different tense, I usually read a book written in the tense I want to do. (make that stories. Im on my tablet and can't correct.) Each tense has its own benefits and limitations. Thank you for this clear explanation! :-)Louise3annenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-18830730539315589242012-05-26T07:43:17.471+10:002012-05-26T07:43:17.471+10:00 I was recently told a short story I wrote fell cl... I was recently told a short story I wrote fell closer to the omniscient end of third than deep, but I think I can vary from story to story. the novel is closer to deep I think. First - just ain't gonna happen!<br /><br />Writing present tense isn't really recommended (except for a synopsis) so I wouldn't worry over that one too much. <br /><br />It comes in a mouse pad? I SO must have it!Ciara Ballintynehttp://ciaraballintyne.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1930320015749694781.post-36061013526744842832012-05-26T01:44:58.112+10:002012-05-26T01:44:58.112+10:00Great post, Ciara! I definitely love deep 3rd POV,...Great post, Ciara! I definitely love deep 3rd POV, but I can easily write in first as well. What trips me up is writing present tense--just cannot do that no matter what POV. And, love your dragon egg pic--it's one of my fav mouse pads! :-)Marsha A. Moorehttp://twitter.com/MarshaAMoorenoreply@blogger.com